| southpark26 |
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I have a few
questions concerning all of these:
1. What is the difference
between Aedra and Daedra besides the Earth Bones thing, and if the
Daedra are in Oblivion, where are the Aedra?
2. If the Daedra
were created from Padomy, than why do ppl and books in morrowind
refer to them as our ancestors? And why does the book "Aedra and
Daedra" say that the Aedra are ancestors if they were created from
Anu? Also, that same book says Daedra are not ancestors and Aedra
are, but everything else says the opposite, whats with that?
Does anyone want to add a question, or answer any of these?
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The way I see
it, both the Aedra and the Daedra are made from both Anu and
Padomay. Aedra have more of the essence of Anu and the Daedra have
more of the essence of Padomay. Anu is the personification of stasis
and order, while Padomay is the personification of change and chaos.
Most of the Aedra were tricked by Lorkhan into cretaing
Mundus, the mortal plane, from themselves. The weakest ones were
destroyed, while others seem to have survived to become the Aldmeri
(their ancestors that is). That makes them the ancestors of the
Merish races. The strongest of the Aedra survived and became a part
of the Mundus. They are seen as planets to mortal eyes and worhipped
by most races (such as the Cyrodiil Divines). They also form the
natural laws and limitations of the Mundus, such as time. They also
can die, but I'm not sure what it would take to truly kill one of
the divines or what that would do to the Mundus.
The Daedra
were not tricked into the creation of the mortal plane and remain as
rulers of Oblivion. They can travel to the Mundus, where their
avatar can be slain. However they are then sent back to Oblivion.
That is, they cannot die. At least not by conventional means.
I hope that answers at least some of those questions. 
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not
paying attention. - Tom Peters
Edited
by mafafu (05/01/04 06:10 AM)
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wow thx! of
course that leaves the question of why the chimer/dunmer chose to
follow the daedra and call them ancestors when the aedra are truly
their ancestors.
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Well, the
Chimer split off from the Altmer, and started worshipping the
Daedra. They are Daedra AND ancestor worshippers. Somehow, they got
it in their heads that mortals could become Daedra and that the
Daedra were really just powerful spirits of mortals from the past. I
really don't know how or why they started believing that, but it
doesn't really fit in with the rest of the lore, so I believe they
are mistaken. The Dunmer also believed that the Tribunal were real
gods and were such because they earned it. 
--------------------
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The ascension
of the ancestors is possible. It did not say "become Daedra", it
said "become as the Daedra". In other words, they transcend the
mortal limitations of Mundus and become immortal spirits. For
example, Tiber Septim at the beginning of the Third Era became
something of a god, though most likely not as powerful, and the King
of Worms used the Mantella to become a god. It's called the Psijic
Endeavor.
To further the difference between the Daedra and
Aedra: Daedra translates as "Not Our Ancestors" and Aedra translates
as "Our Ancestors".
--------------------
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and, why did
the dunmer who regard ancestors so high, change to worshipping the
daedra?
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Quote:
The ascension of the ancestors is possible.
Well, of course it is, but
that's not really what I was referring to. The Dunmer DO refer to
the Daedra as ancestors and I made a jump in logic (which may be
incorrect) that they believe that the Daedra were once mortal. I
then dispelled the idea that the Daedra were once mortal. Maybe I
made that idea up in the first place, but I was just pointing out
that mortals don't become Daedra.
I don't think we're
disagreeing, but the Dunmer just don't share the same views with the
Altmer on the Daedra not being ancestors.
--------------------
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If you're not confused, you're not
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I've never
been entirely sure. I think that the Daedra helped the early Chimer
when they were being persecuted and led Veloth. As such, the Chimer
recognized that they needed to be respected, and so erected shrines
to them. This may have been more to appease the worst of the Daedra,
since their shrines are the most numerous, and only two ancient
shrines exist for the three good Daedra. In any case, the Daedra
helped the Chimer during the early years.
--------------------
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Quote:
and, why did the dunmer who regard ancestors so high, change
to worshipping the daedra?
They didn't really. They
worship[ped] both. I'm just not sure that the Dunmer see the Aedra
as their ancestors anymore. Their form of ancestor worship would be
in the form of praying to St. Veloth or some such thing. And they
include Daedra as ancestors.
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
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I was
thinking, maybe the Daedra are elve's immortal ancestors while the
Aedra are their mortal ancestors, and the Dunmer who hate Lorkhan
and the fact that they are forced to be mortal choose to worship the
Daedra and live by thier ways (pre-tribunal dunmer) in hope that
they would become closer to them and ascend from there mortality
after death (that may be a good reason for why they hate
necromancy).
This is just a thought, feel free to correct me
if i need to be corrected (infact i want constructive critism).
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It's the
Altmer who really hate Lorkhan for severing them from the spirit
world. I believe the Dunmer hold Lorkhan in a much higher regard.
Lorkhan may have severed mortals from Aetherius, but he also led the
way to transcend.
The Daedra had no part in the construction
of the Mundus, and as such, are not the ancestors of any mortal.
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not
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Oh, is
Aetherius the spirit world? And what is the way to Transcend?
Didn't the mortal races exist as immortals before the mortal
world was created?
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Actually, the
Chimer were the mer who chose to believe that Lorkhan had created
Mundus for the purpose of allowing the et'Ada who participated to
transcend the chaos of what had been created. It was the Altmer who
spurned Lorkhan as a vile trickster(their name for him means "Doom
Drum").
And no, the Daedra are not ancestors. Life and death
are parts of Mundus, just as is birth. The Daedra do not grow nor
shrink in terms of population because they can neither die nor be
born. As such, it is impossible for them to have children, and thus
could not be related to mortals of Mundus. Only by participating in
the creation of Mundus could the Daedra have become mortal and thus
become Aedra, the ancestors.
--------------------
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Quote:
Oh, is Aetherius the spirit world? And what is the way to
Transcend?
I'm not sure that's really the
best terminology, but the mortal world is surrounded by Oblivion and
Aetherius is beyond that. It's seems to be used as 'the rest of the
Aurbis' (Aurbis = known universe). which is where the immortal
spirits resided (and still do by containment) before the creation of
the Mundus.
There is no one way to transcend, but the Psijic
Endeavour is one path. Do a search at The Imperial
Library for more information about that (or wait for more
responses).
Quote:
Didn't the mortal races exist as immortals before the mortal
world was created?
Apparently that's the way the
Altmer see it, but I'm not convinced. The ancestors of the Altmer
were severed, but the Altmer would have never been born without the
Mundus.
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not
paying attention. - Tom Peters
Edited
by mafafu (05/01/04 08:47 AM)
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The Altmer are
too arrogant to see past the end of their own nose, much less to
what they used to be. When the Aedra first existed they were doomed
to an eternity trapped in the same form, forever trapped in an
inability to become more than they were and better than the chaos
around them. Mundus allows the mortals to transcend that chaos and
become more than it.
NOTE: My own opinions, not fact.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
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| southpark26 |
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i still dont
know what the psjic endeaver is because i cant understand the stuff
at the imperial library! its harder than trying to converse with
Baladas Demnevani!
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| mafafu |
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You can't just
get it all in one day. I still wrestle with what little we do know
about the deep lore of ES. For someone who's been registered here
for 5 days though, you are doing extremely well. Just keep asking
questions/reading posts here and try to muddle your way through the
stuff at TIL and eventually it will start to make more sense.
As for the Psijic Endeavour, the creation of the Mundus was
the first attempt. It's not really an easy subject to explain, and
what we do know about it is still a bit hazy. But simply, it is a
transcendance of the mortal world into something more, deeply rooted
in that aspect that is Padomay, change.
And here is what
Vivec said about it:
Quote:
What is the Psijic Endeavor?
The basis for the
teachings of the Prophet Veloth, founder of present day Morrowind
and father of Dunmeri culture. Veloth describes the Psijic
Endeavor as a process of glorious apotheosis, where time itself is
bent inward and outward into 'a shape that is always new'. Those
who can attain this state, called chim, experience an ineffable
sense of the godhead, and escape the strictures of the world-egg.
It should be noted that, while Veloth is given credit for
establishing the anti-laws that govern the Endeavor, this process
has its antecedents in the teachings of the Black Hands Mephala,
Boethiah, Azura, Trinimac, and, of course, Lorkhan, through that
lord's association with PSJJJJ.
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
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In essence,
the Endeavor is the process of total self-realization. One who
follows it discovers their true nature within and evolve into a
higher spirit which escapes the endless loop of death and rebirth
upon Mundus. The essence of a being is Change, and that Change is
circulated throughout the world as the center of all life by the
Heart of Lorkhan. By solidifying your Change into Stasis, a person
transcends the limits of Mundus and becomes, in essence, a god.
--------------------
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is that why
dagoth ur believed it good to distribute the heart of lorkhans power
to his followers?
Also weren't dagoth's intentions a bit
similar to the psijic endeaver?
and one more thing, if the
heart of lorkhan creates change why when you destroy it, does it not
destroy the world?
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I don't think
Ur's intentions were the same. His intentions had to do with a gain
of power and domination over the Mundus itself by drawing power
straight from the Heart. I don't think those that attempt the
Endeavour are interested in such mortal concerns as world
domination.
And at the end of TESIII, you do not destroy the
Heart of Lorkhan, but merely the enchantments placed upon it. That
is what destroys both Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal's power. The Heart
I believe, retreats to protect itself, much like highly enchanted
items that are known to simply disappear from time to time.
But yes, if the Heart were to be truly destroyed, so too
would the Mundus.
--------------------
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Isn't it a bit
funny that people even care about the mortal world if they can just
perform the Psjic Endeaver and move on to what is supposedly a much
better place. Do you agree?
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The Psijic
Endeavor is virtually impossible to achieve. Most people have no
chance to even learn of the Endeavor's existence, much less have the
luxury of exploring the possibilities. The Endeavor is a lifelong
quest, and most people are trapped in the details of ordinary life.
If the world becomes a horrible place to live, none will ever gain
the chance to transcend because they will never have the chance to
fully realize their true essence.
--------------------
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So technically
no one can achieve the Psijic Endeavor? Then why do they keep going?
--------------------
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Tiber Septim,
King of Worms, and I think someone else (Underking?)
have
completed the Psijic Endeavor I believe.
--------------------
"Once all the walls are torn down,
and the barriers broken, who will you be? Where will you stand? Will
you find yourself empty, having only defined yourself through
others? Or will you be your own person, and stand tall in your own
magnificence? That, my friends, is the difference between heaven and
hell; it is known as 'identity'." - Anonymous
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I said
virtually impossible, not impossible. It can be achieved, but it
takes more dedication than most can give it. Mages are the most
likely to achieve it because they can extend their lifespans and
accumulate enough power to maintain the state they need. But even a
peasant could achieve it under the right circumstances without ever
going beyond his home town.
--------------------
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Quote:
Tiber Septim, King of Worms, and I think someone else
(Underking?) have completed the Psijic Endeavor I believe.
There is no evidence that anyone
has successfully pulled of the Psijic Endeavor, at any
time.
Even if we accept that the individuals you mentioned
have become immortals (the evidence for which is spurious, in the
case of Tiber Septim IMO), the Endeavor is about far more than
becoming a god, as all previous gods are defined.
The
Endeavor is concerned with achieving a state (as TS said, above)
that is beyond the boundaries of mortal existence. But it is,
moreover, a state beyond the boundaries of the existence of all
immortals too, since it defies the basic universal laws of Stasis
and Change that constrain them, being neither one nor the other, yet
both.
--------------------
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of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
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Whoa trippy,
so when and if (and that's a big if) you achieve the Psijic Endeavor
you transcend not just mortals but immortals? So it's like achieving
a sort of apathic state. Because like Nigedo said in the post above
me that you are neither stasis or change and yet you are both.
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Uh ?
Everything that is spiritual in nature is both made of stasis and
change. Why would you need the psijjic endeavor for that ? Maybe the
psijjic endeavor is more about breaking the bonds of mortality
without dieing. Something about that lhorkan story of creating the
mortal plane and binding spirits of those mythic eras to accept
mortality.
--------------------
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Quote:
Maybe the psijjic endeavor is more about breaking the bonds of
mortality without dieing.
Yes, that and much more.
From
Varieties of Faith in the Empire;
"In
Morrowind, for example, [Lorkhan] is a being related to the Psijiic
Endeavor, a process by which mortals are charged with transcending the gods that created
them."
--------------------
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Jeez man
that's a mind boggling philosiphy. Ah I think I get it, Lorkahn
forged the chains of the Aedra binding them to their creation making
them mortal, so the Aedra tricked by Lorkahn were forced to
desubstantiate and become mortal, so the mortals that came from the
Earth Bones where able transubstantiate the gods that created them.
So the Psijic Endeavor now is trying and trandscend the current
Aedra and Daedra?
If I'm wrong please tell me this is one of
those topics in the forum I've always had trouble understanding.
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Quote:
The Endeavor is concerned with achieving a state (as
TS said, above) that is beyond the boundaries of mortal existence.
But it is, moreover, a state beyond the boundaries of the
existence of all immortals too, since it defies the basic
universal laws of Stasis and Change that constrain them, being
neither one nor the other, yet both.
I'm by no means an expert, but
something has always bugged me about the Psijic Endeavor, as what it
appears to be trying to achieve is exactly what Lorkhan did. He
created a plane (Mundus) that consisted of both Stasis and Change.
Maybe someone stumbled upon Lorkhan's old notes and thought it
applied to them, when it didn't.
--------------------
"Once all the walls are torn down,
and the barriers broken, who will you be? Where will you stand? Will
you find yourself empty, having only defined yourself through
others? Or will you be your own person, and stand tall in your own
magnificence? That, my friends, is the difference between heaven and
hell; it is known as 'identity'." - Anonymous
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Quote:
something has always bugged me about the Psijic Endeavor, as
what it appears to be trying to achieve is exactly what Lorkhan
did. He created a plane (Mundus) that consisted of both Stasis and
Change.
Vehk teaches that the Mundus was
the product of Lorkhan's (intentional?) failure to achieve CHIM, the
state that is the objective of the Psijic Endeavor.
As I see
it, the Mundus is a Compromise between the poles of Stasis and
Change and it is referred to as such in the Lessons of Vivec.
Creating the Mundus, and being split apart to seal its
creation, served to satisfy Lorkhan's desire to be aligned to both
Stasis and Change, but it still fails to be an expression of CHIM,
since CHIM is a higher state that is neither Stasis nor Change but
allows the fullness of both to be continuously experienced.
Edit: We seem to have wandered from the original purpose of
this thread. I hope Southpark doesn't mind? 
--------------------
Dean of The
Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Edited by Nigedo (05/05/04 02:07 AM)
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Quote:
We seem to have wandered from the original purpose of this
thread. I hope Southpark doesn't mind?
Why would he? He asked about
the Psijic Endeavour didn't he?
And HERE is a good link to what Nigedo's talking
about.
--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
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Well that
solves my ignorance, confusing but somehow I get it. Thanks for the
link Mafafu I won't bug you guys that's all I needed to know.
--------------------
" The learning man wins with words,
not war"
" Think and the rest should follow"
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